Interview with Norman Bethune Allan // Jack Dempster
Norman Bethune Allan is a Toronto writer, artist and literary organizer. He’s had a long and storied career in literature and poetry, and I wanted to talk to him about his life. In our conversation we touched upon his interactions with revered figures, including his own father, his organizing and performing history, and where he likes to hear verse in the city.
Jack Dempster: Norm, you are very engaged with your local literary community. When did you first encounter the Toronto, Canadian or general poetry and literature scene?
Norman Bethune Allan: Well first, apropos "general," my father was a writer (primarily a playwright) so I grew up in a literary environment.
But more specifically: soon after returning to Toronto in 1980, as my wife and I were driving home one night along the Danforth, we saw a man and a boy dressed as clowns, holding balloons, engaging with the world brightly. We stopped to ask: "What's up?" It was Alan Sutterfield (Alan Sutterfield would found the Art Bar in 1991) celebrating the opening of his gallery and coffee shop, the Gallery No. I was the first poet to feature at the Gallery No.
From that, later in the early ’90s when Alan started The Art Bar, I was one of the first features at that event.
JD: Were there any particular influences or catalysts for your journey into poetry and literature?
NBA: For me, poetry has always been in the hands of the muse, although of course other poets influence us. I know there was a period in my youth when I’d reach for Eliot's phrasings.
Prose, though, is another matter. The muse may say this story needs to be written, but the rest is hard work and innumerable drafts. My father, Ted, was an influence. In my 20s, writing my PhD was overwhelming; my dad offered to edit, a gift for which I am eternally grateful. In practice, though, it wasn’t a pleasant collaboration. Ted was daunted by the science, and he was defensive about everything.
Later, when I was working on the introduction, Errol Bailey helped me edit that, and the collaboration was a dream.
After I dropped out of academia in 1971 (it’s a long story) and my marriage fell apart (a longer story), my father, Ted Allan, nudged me towards writing fiction.
"Do you have a story we could work on?" he would ask.
I had a rather personal story and, over six successive edits, Ted guided me towards fictionalization. It’s virtually the only fiction I've ever written.
Most of my prose is "reportage": true stories that need to be told.
JD: You have held poetry spotlight shows hosting such poets as Bänoo Zan. You also hold an ongoing poetry workshop series. Can you please describe your experience in literary organizing in the city?
NBA: In 2018 I tried to host a poetry series in the east end, and it was wonderful, though poorly attended. I had amazing poets feature, and we'd do it in a circle. Everyone was free to participate. Bänoo Zan actually sat to deliver!
Ah, but both venues were problematic. Almost immediately, the first venue decided that they would no longer be open in the evenings, and the second venue was beyond problematic— catastrophic. And my teacher's teacher tells me not to "push the river" (when you don't have to).
The poetry workshop was a little more salutary … The Renaissance Conspiracy was a poetry workshop that Diane Mescherin started in 2003 with Alan Breismaster's help. It was an amazing poetic experience, and very well attended. But after the Renaissance Cafe closed in 2009, The Conspiracy wandered around like an orphan, and expired in January 2013. It had been such a wonderful experience for me—getting the feedback of peers—that with no break in time, in February 2013, I revived the Renaissance. I ran it for 7 years, until this last January. It was sparsely attended. I used to gripe that poets nowadays did not want to edit, but it was as likely just my personality, because The Conspiracy had thrived. Now friends are taking over the running of the Ren Rev; hopefully its attendance will grow.
JD: You are currently working on a book about your father. Could you briefly outline this project? What made you want to write the book?
NBA: My father`s experience in Spain in 1937 during the Civil War is the most interesting, exciting story from the 20th century that I know of! He had fascinating interactions with Hemingway and with Norman Bethune, his close friend and mentor. In fact, he was responsible for sending Bethune back to Canada!
My father also had a close involvement with the famed war photographers Robert Capa and Gerda Taro. He fell in love with Gerda, of course, and was badly injured in the accident that proved fatal for the love of his life.
I thought the best way to tell the story was as though it were a film, hence the title: Ted Allan in Spain: The Movie. I self-published an early draft through Amazon that started in filmstrip format, and then morphed into prose (which is easier reading for most of us), but the experimental style proved an obstacle for most readers.
The new version, which is all in prose, is looking for a publisher.
JD: Do you have any other works, published or in-progress, which readers should know about?
NBA: Oh yes! In 1975 I novelized my father's film script, Lies My Father Told Me. You can find the book on Amazon, but the text is also on my website.
In terms of my current writings, just yesterday I had multiple inspirations about a new project: a surreal account of current happenings told through the voice of an alter ego. Back in the ’70s, for a while I went by a "hippie name," Pasha. And yesterday Pasha returned, as a literary device: Pasha's Journey. I think, to begin with, I'll post Pasha's journals on social media chapter by chapter.
I am struggling these many months to find the "voice" for a book that's both about spirit, miracle and magic, and about animals: Postcard from the Other Side. Just this morning—the pace increases—a friend suggested that, to start, I should write "Postcard" as a children's book. My most important writing project, though, isn't literary, but journalistic: an account of my involvement in what in scientific terminology is called "ultradilution," and in homeopathic jargon is "potentization.” It's real! Go see Beyond Substance on my website. And its important! I really think it could change the world.
JD: Could you describe one remarkable event you have experienced in the Toronto world of literature?
NBA: The most "remarkable" literary experience I've had in Toronto started at the Hibiscus Writer's Circle, which was quite an extraordinary event. Douglas Naimer's workshopping of his film project, which I'll call "J," was among the most exciting literary experiences of my life. If you get a chance to hear Douglas, don't miss it.
I also had an experience with the famed Alan Watts. We're going back to 1971. I was a postdoc at York University and I heard, at the last moment, that Watts was giving a talk downtown on a Friday night. His introduction to Buddhism, The Way of Zen, was very important to my generation, and the talk blew me away. He was giving a weekend seminar somewhere in the Humber Valley, and I was able to attend.
He structured the seminar in six modules: two on Saturday morning, two in the afternoon, and two Sunday morning. For several of these sections he dressed for the part. For his Zen talk he was dressed in Zen robes. There was a section on Hawaiian spirituality, and for that he dressed in a grass skirt. Quite the showman, and quite the guru. It was stunning!
It ended Sunday at lunch time, and most of the participants left. But some of us hung around, too moved to move.
After about 20 minutes, Watts came back downstairs, dressed now in a flannel shirt and jeans. And now he no longer behaved as the guru. Now he just seamlessly slotted into the gathering as a peer. After a while he suggested a walk in the Humber Ravine, so we had several hours of relaxed personal contact with him. Wow!
JD: If people are interested in learning more about you and your work, where can they find you in the public sphere or on social media?
NBA: In the public sphere, you will almost always find me at Georgia Wilder's Wild Writers and Bänoo Zan's Shab-e She'r Poetry Night. My website is enormous: all my passions are there. And Instagram has been a new obsession: #normanallandr. I've posted more than fourteen thousand images over the last few years. Please be in touch.
